Navigating Narcissism in the Workplace During Menopause with Rebecca Zung

Susan Sly: 00:00

Hello, Susan here, and welcome to this episode of The Menopause Health Podcast. In this episode, my guest and I are going to talk about how to navigate narcissism in the workplace when you are going through perimenopause and menopause.

And I have to say, I always say every episode is my favorite, but this one is off the charts. I took six pages of notes, and my guest today is the unequivocal global expert on how to deal with high-conflict resolution, negotiation, and, of course, difficult personalities—aka narcissists.

She is an attorney. She grew the biggest law practice in southeast Florida. She has appeared on Extra, In Time, Forbes, Newsweek, NPR, and others. She is a bestselling author. She has a YouTube channel with almost half a million subscribers, over 50 million views of her videos. She is a sought-after speaker. She is hired by corporations to come in and help them with their high-conflict resolution strategy, and she happens to be one of my best friends on the planet.

So, my guest today is none other than Rebecca Zung, and when you get into the show with Rebecca and me, we are going to talk about how to recognize a difficult personality, not to second-guess yourself, especially if you're dealing with perimenopause or menopause symptoms, how to resolve conflicts, and how to reclaim your power! Yes, which is amazing.

And before we get into the show, if you haven’t checked it out yet, thePause™ app is live. So, not only when you’re onboarding do you get to gauge your stage—there are 10 stages of perimenopause and menopause, who knew? That’s number one.

Number two: when you sync your Apple Watch, you will be able to get a daily resilience score, so you can stop second-guessing yourself. You’ll know, can I push it today? Or do I need to dial it back?

And most importantly, you get a 24/7 AI menopause companion, Harmoni™. We are getting rave reviews, so go to the App Store—it’s available on iOS—and find thePause™ app. Download it today. It is life-changing.

So, with that, let’s get into this episode of the show with my amazing friend and sister from another mister, the one and only, Rebecca Zung.

Voiceover: 02:39

The opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the show or its host. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional regarding your specific health needs.

Welcome to The Menopause Health Podcast, your go-to resource for practical advice brought to you by credentialed health professionals and industry experts. Here is your host, Susan Sly.

Susan Sly: 03:20

Okay, well, we are jumping into a hot topic—narcissism in the workplace, women who are perimenopausal, menopausal. I’m going to jump in with some stats, and then Rebecca and I are going to get right into it.

Our producer has said, “Keep it spicy, girls.” That’s not going to be a problem. So, I’m going to read the stats, and Rebecca, jump in.

One of the surveys I read revealed that over 65% of women reported their work performance suffered due to menopausal symptoms—think hot flashes, brain fog, heat surges (I call them not quite the same as a full-on hot flash), mental and emotional symptoms, and fatigue.

Then 54% reported being affected by fatigue, 47% by difficulty sleeping, 44% by poor concentration, and 40% by memory lapses.

The Mayo Clinic said in: 2023

And we have women who are navigating perimenopause and menopause. They’re building companies, they’re in the workforce—perhaps as nurses, teachers, or doctors. They’re listening to this show.

And the first question I have for you is: there’s an emotional vulnerability. How can a woman know if there is a narcissist in her life potentially taking advantage of her when she’s in a vulnerable state?

Rebecca Zung: 04:58

Gosh, it’s such a complicated question. It’s a great question, but it’s a complicated question because, obviously, there’s the hormonal aspect of what’s going on in your brain and your body. But if you do have somebody who’s toxic in your life, you’re also going to have a toxic mix of things happening in your brain and in your body because of the cortisol.

And so, what happens with cortisol is, with the brain, when you are in fight or flight, you have this amygdala attack. It really shuts down your parasympathetic nervous system, and you’re just constantly in this heightened state of alert because you’re trying to protect yourself.

It’s like a basic human function, right? And when that happens on a regular and continuous basis for a long period of time, you can end up with CPTSD, which is complex post-traumatic stress disorder. It’s something that happens over a series of events over time, rather than maybe one large event, like a car accident or something like that.

And if that happens over a long period of time, your hypothalamus can actually start to shrink also, and it affects memory, it affects processing.

So, if you’re dealing with somebody who’s toxic for a long period of time, it doesn’t have to be a romantic partner—it can be a business partner, a boss, a colleague, a toxic environment, no matter where you are. And then, you combine that with what’s happening in your body as a result of menopause, it could be really, really, not just overwhelming, but actually quite defeating.

And so, it’s really, really critical to understand what’s happening in your body, what’s happening with this other person, and learning how to protect yourself, communicate properly, set boundaries properly, etc.

Susan Sly: 07:19

And Rebecca, I love what you said about this heightened state of alert, right?

So, a lot of women—50%—aren’t sleeping, and over 70% have these motor symptoms. They’re dealing with that. And it’s easy, when we’re vulnerable, to second-guess ourselves and say, “Is this really happening?”

It’s almost like having an out-of-body experience. Rebecca, you know I’ve watched many, many of your YouTube videos, my sister. Everyone needs to go to Rebecca’s YouTube channel. Hundreds of thousands of subscribers—amazing, amazing content that’s digestible.

And I know there are many types of narcissists—I learned that from you—but what would be some of the telltale signs that it’s time for a woman to step back and go, “Wait a minute. This isn’t necessarily menopause or perimenopause; this person is toxic.” So, what are their tells?

Rebecca Zung: 08:19

Well, there are so many, but I’ll give you some of the highlights and some of the ones that are similar across all types of narcissists.

One is gaslighting. And gaslighting—I could really write a whole book on gaslighting. When I went to write my book, and I had the chapter on gaslighting, I realized, oh my gosh, there are so many forms of gaslighting, and it shows up in so many different ways.

But the gist of it is trying to make you think you’re crazy, trying to make you doubt your reality or how you feel. They invalidate you in some way, whether it’s, “I never said that,” “I never did that,” or “This is what I said,” or “This is what we agreed to—don’t you remember?”

It can also show up as invalidating your feelings: “You’re oversensitive,” “Why are you reacting like that? That doesn’t make any sense,” or “You’re reading too much into this.”

You know, doubting what you’re actually seeing and feeling—that’s gaslighting. And that’s something all narcissists engage in.

Another one is inconsistency in their behavior. One day, you’re their best friend, their hero, you’re amazing. And the next day, it’s, “Why are you so needy? What’s wrong with you?”

They ghost you, don’t show up for you, or are abusive in some way. But then, when you start to leave, they pull you back with that push-pull, push-pull behavior all the time.

And what happens in your brain is you get a dopamine hit every time they love-bomb you. And it can happen in a business setting, too, by the way.

But then, your cortisol levels spike when they ghost you or treat you poorly. And so, this toxic mix goes on in your head. That’s what creates a trauma bond to the person. You’re almost addicted to getting that hit of, “They see me. I’m okay in their eyes.”

And again, this can happen in a workplace or romantic setting because I’ve had it in a workplace setting myself. So, it’s both.

Susan Sly: 11:10

Rebecca, so I’m writing for the people listening—I am writing copious notes. And the gaslighting piece, just going back to that, so many people have heard the term gaslighting, and I love how you broke it down because it’s often used like, “Don’t gaslight me.” But, you know, what does it really mean?

And this concept of being invalidated, invalidating our feelings, and then on top of it, when we are going through physical symptoms of menopause—

We had Andrea Campbell, nurse practitioner, on the show, and she was talking about the 30 symptoms of perimenopause. Rebecca, I had no idea. You know, my background is technology. I had no idea there were 30 symptoms—itchy skin, frozen shoulder, things you wouldn’t attribute—

Susan Sly: 12:05

I think I’ve had those, by the way.

Susan Sly: 12:09

And here’s the thing with gaslighting—it’s this nuance. So, we’re suffering in our physical body, often second-guessing ourselves. And then there’s a person, in different categories of narcissists, taking advantage of us.

And at the same time, breaking it down—the inconsistency in the behavior—genius as always.

Because when we look at that, a lot of women are addicted to feeling bad. And, as you said, it’s this push-pull dynamic, feeling invalidated, and then suddenly they’re back in your life again.

I’ve experienced that too. It’s the person who doesn’t return a text in a business relationship and then suddenly starts texting non-stop: “Oh, this is when I’m available,” or “This is what I need.”

I’m beyond that now, but I used to show up for it because I felt like I didn’t deserve to be respected, didn’t deserve to feel good.

So, Rebecca, let’s say someone’s listening and thinking, Preach it, girls. This is happening to me. What is step one now that they’ve come to this realization?

Rebecca Zung: 13:24

Absolutely. So, I have a three-part process that I call Your 180—your U-turn, right? Because when you’re feeling at the effect of someone else, you want to go on the offensive, not stay defensive.

You want to feel like the oak tree in the wind—rooted and planted—so they can do whatever they want, but you’re steady.

I always say your goal is to be like Glinda in The Wizard of Oz. When the Wicked Witch shows up, Glinda just says, “Go away. You have no power here.” The witch shrinks away because there’s no opening, no vulnerability. Narcissists look for vulnerabilities.

So, step one: don’t run.

Step two: make a U-turn.

Step three: break free.

Step one involves putting an invisible shield around yourself. Imagine them as a toddler having a tantrum on the floor because that’s basically what they are. Their own trauma, from childhood and all that cortisol, caused arrested development in the limbic system of their brain.

When a narcissist is triggered, their prefrontal cortex shuts down. They’re no longer thinking rationally or with good judgment; they’re operating purely from emotion. They’ll even self-sabotage to take you down with them.

You can’t communicate or negotiate with a narcissist the way you would with a reasonable person. Just see them as a toddler throwing a tantrum. When a toddler screams louder or kicks harder to get what they want, you don’t scream back. You simply observe and think, Okay, are you done yet?

That’s the mindset you need with a narcissist—observe, don’t absorb; respond, don’t react. Say things like, “I can see that you’re upset. We can talk when you’ve calmed down,” or “This approach isn’t working for me.” You can even just say, “Thank you for the feedback.”

Here’s another tip: never JADE—never Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain. It’s a waste of time. You’re never going to get a narcissist to say, “Oh my goodness, I see your point now.” That’s not happening, so don’t even try.

Step one is to stay planted, put that invisible shield around you, and start observing their behavior without absorbing it. I also teach SOS: Stop, Observe, then Speak. If you take a breath before responding, you can stop yourself from being triggered.

Remember, their behavior is about them, not you. Take a breath, then respond.

Susan Sly: 17:20

Rebecca, okay, I’m writing super fast. And as an origin story, if Rebecca and I were superheroes—which we are—between us, we have eight children.

So, anyway, when Rebecca is talking about toddler behavior—all moms are superheroes—we know from whence we’ve had such experience.

Rebecca and I met through Mark Victor Hansen, who always said, “Susan, write with purple pens because purple is the color of royalty and prosperity.” So, my purple pen is going a million miles an hour.

Rebecca Zung: 18:01

I love that. And, like, Prince is awesome too. That’s so cool. I love that. That’s just amazing.

Susan Sly: 18:09

Right? So all my pens are purple.

Rebecca, in all the years I’ve known you, I love the JADE acronym because it’s so simple and powerful. That person is there, and we’re already feeling vulnerable, already not feeling like ourselves.

The statistic is that hot flashes alone can last women seven and a half years. So, we’re already feeling like our bodies are not our own, and now we’re dealing with a narcissist who is gaslighting us, trying to get their fix on us.

We’re already feeling vulnerable. Maybe we have brain fog, which is a real symptom.

Another symptom that women are experiencing, which is being studied more now, is heightened anxiety in menopausal women. It’s a fast-growing segment of suicide statistics, which is so heartbreaking.

So, we’re possibly already in a very vulnerable state. Now we’re dealing with someone who, whether they’re aware of it or not, is taking advantage of our physical symptoms, and we have to work extra hard.

That’s why I love the acronyms and Glinda—it’s like, “No, I have my invisible shield.” And, you know, just, you do you, Boo.

Rebecca Zung: 19:30

Yeah, you have no power here. Go away, please. Don’t waste my time, my energy, or my space.

And I want to add to some of your statistics: up to 42% of an entrepreneur’s day—a business owner’s day—is spent dealing with high-conflict personalities. Companies spent close to $400 billion last year on high-conflict issues.

This is why I just started Harmony Works, the enterprise arm of my company. We’re now coaching companies, and I actually just got certified as a government contractor to start doing government contracts.

It’s an epidemic, and when you’re dealing with all of this on top of handling high-conflict people, it can be overwhelming.

I know, for me, there have been times where I’ve thought, Do I have early dementia? Why can’t I think of that one thing I always know? Like, you can’t find the word for it, and you start to think, Am I losing brain cells? What’s happening here?

Susan Sly: 20:49

Yeah, and less than 5% of women in the United States are on hormone replacement therapy. We’ve had many episodes with physicians talking about HRT, the myths, and the realities.

That’s why, even with thePause™ app and Harmoni™, the 24/7 menopause companion, whether it’s two in the morning—she’s there.

“No, you are not going crazy. This is normal. You’re here. Just get it together, girl—you’re going to be fine.”

And Rebecca, yes, your stat about 42% of a business owner’s day being spent dealing with high-conflict personalities resonates. I think about that because I own my choices, and we always say, you and I have done so much work on ourselves, so we don’t just talk the talk—we walk the walk.

You’re building this coaching empire and social media empire, and you continue to get coached and do the work because the work is the work. The work is called work because it never stops.

The thing I want people listening to hear—whether you’re a health practitioner, a provider, or whatever position you’re in—is that there is a component of work to this.

You’re not just going to listen to this podcast and say, “Okay, I can follow the JADE acronym, I can observe, and I can step back.”

Because when you’re in the moment, you may be triggered. That may bring up some subconscious memories of trauma from earlier in your life.

I was texting with you, Rebecca. For the listeners, the global audience—just Google us because we literally look like sisters. Rebecca is my sister, and I was saying to her, “I made a decision. I see so clearly in retrospect why I made that decision. I’m not going to beat myself up about it.”

So, Rebecca, what is your best advice for women going through perimenopause and menopause to stop beating themselves up over decisions made during vulnerable moments? They hear your grounding voice, and if they could see you, you’d look like an angel—all in white. They’re thinking, I just want to put the bubble around me, Rebecca, but I’m beating myself up about these decisions I made when I was so vulnerable. Help them.

Rebecca Zung: 23:24

Yeah, you know, I mean, I recently just had a toxic person sneak under the tent too. Like I always say, no icky people under the tent. But I just had, you know, one sneak under that I had to remove.

And, you know, I always say, send them light, but over there—like, they’re not in your space. Because if you hold any kind of grudge, then you’re giving them power.

So, do not hold grudges, and do not beat yourself up over it. Because, you know, I think a lot of times for women, we’re conditioned to feel guilty, to take care of everybody, to be responsible for whoever is in our world. And we just do it, and it’s basically unnoticed a lot of times.

But then we end up what I call shoulding all over ourselves. “You should have done this.” “You should have done that.” “You should be more like that.”

That is so unproductive for yourself, for everyone around you, and for the real, authentic, true, powerful you that is meant for more, meant to serve, and meant to be an inspiration in this world.

So, you know, all of that—it doesn’t help you. The past is whatever. You take it as what my coach calls a yes moment.

“Yes, that happened.” You know, because you always want to go, “Oh my God, I can’t believe this happened.” But instead of doing that, say, “Yes, I’m so happy that happened.”

Because you can now reframe it however you want to reframe it in your way, and say, “I’m so glad that happened because I get to learn from this. I’m never doing that again.”

And now I remove people who have red flags much quicker than I ever used to, and I don’t feel guilty about it like I used to.

Susan Sly: 25:26

Yeah, and holding on to the guilt—it just takes up physical and emotional space, right?

You and I have both done Tony Robbins training and all sorts of different things. And having that ritual for yourself when it happens, especially if you’re going to play a big game—like our friend Kelly talks about playing a big game in life—you’re going to own a business, scale the business, and deal with challenging people.

And so, one of my rituals is music. You just reminded me of a couple of songs I use. One is Meghan Trainor’s No. I’ll go to the gym or for a run, and I’m like, My name is no, my sign is no.

The other is Taylor Swift’s Shake It Off. Like, you just gotta shake it off and move on.

Because here’s the thing, especially for women—and you and I have had this conversation before—our dads were amazing men. The reason Rebecca and I are the way we are is because of our dads.

Rebecca Zung: 26:27

I literally just got chills.

Susan Sly: 26:29

Yeah, I know. And it’s this concept of, you know, it takes a strong father to raise a strong daughter, right?

And we are strong women. Our fathers would never want us to beat ourselves up over decisions we’ve made, bad hires we’ve made, or toxic relationships we’ve had. They would want us to shake it off.

Okay, come on, Rebecca, let’s go, darling.

Rebecca Zung: 26:59

I’m going to quote Bruce Lee, who’s one of my heroes of all time.

And I actually got to meet Shannon Lee and have dinner with her, which was one of the highlights of my life. Just, you know—hoppa girl.

And so, one of his most famous quotes is: Be water. And I never really realized exactly what that meant until recently. I was listening to Shannon’s book, and what he meant by that is, water just keeps going.

It goes around stuff, through stuff, through the cracks—whatever it needs to do to reach its destination and keep going. And it’s pure, but it’s also strong.

And so, every time something happens recently, I’m like, Be water. Nothing’s stopping me. And that, to me, is so powerful.

Susan Sly: 27:56

It is. And I was thinking, as you’re saying that, about companies and CEOs. For myself as a CEO, especially in AI, one of the things I look at is: Who do people need me to be?

And showing up as that version of myself, which is like water, which is calm.

I was raised, as you know, in a Buddhist, Jewish, Christian household. And this whole sense of calmness—it comes from within. So, the wind is blowing, things are shaking, and you have to be the calm in the storm, especially whatever it is that you do to play big.

Rebecca, I want to ask you, because what keeps coming up for me is conflict resolution. You said that when you leave, they’re going to try and pull you back.

Someone listening to this—they’re negotiating right now. I mean, you are, in my opinion (which is very biased about you), the number one expert in the world on negotiating with a narcissist.

So, let’s say someone’s listening, and they’re in this right now, and they’re not sleeping, and they’re dealing with hormonal fluctuations—and, and, and. How do they get to resolution?

Rebecca Zung: 29:26

Well, that goes to the SLAY methodology, which is: Strategy, Leverage, Anticipate, and You.

Strategy is creating that strong vision. What is it that you want? I mean, and this really works for anything in life. You know, you can’t get to a destination if you don’t know where you’re going.

I literally just wrote my 90-day plan out yesterday—where am I going to be by the end of January? Because, you know, if you pull yourself toward your future instead of thinking from the past, then you’ll be able to create something new.

If you just keep creating from the past, you’re going to have a default future. So, you have to pull yourself toward your future. That’s your strategy.

Leverage is creating leverage such that you’re going to threaten a source of supply that’s more important for them to protect or defend than the supply they get from manipulating you.

What happens with narcissists or high-conflict personalities is there are really two levels of supply. I actually got to interview Sam Vaknin, who’s one of the foremost authorities on this, and he completely backed up what I say here.

The first level, the first tier of supply, is their image, their reputation—how they look to the world, how they look to people that matter to them. Their second tier of supply is the manipulating, the condescension, the smearing—it’s all of that.

They want all forms of supply. They’re like a drug addict. You know, if this high-level cocaine is their favorite, okay, but they still love the crack or whatever is cheaper.

I don’t even know because I don’t do drugs, but, you know, they still want it all.

So, you have to create a situation where there’s leverage.

And I’m really happy to say, thanks to knowing Susan and other amazing AI experts, I have AI in my program now, which helps you create leverage.

I created a personalized GPT, a curated GPT, which is programmed with all of my books, my YouTube videos, my materials—everything—so it knows how to create leverage based on how I teach.

You can actually upload your PDFs, your social media, your emails, your texts, whatever you want to upload, and say, “Help me create leverage the way Rebecca Zung would do it.”

And it’ll literally spit out 10 different arguments for you: “Oh, here’s inconsistent statements,” or “Here’s where they refused to do this,” or “Here’s where they…”—and it’ll pull out the exact supporting documentation for you.

It’s actually like magic. But that’s what you need to do because they don’t ever think that you’re going to keep track, and they always behave badly.

So, whether it’s inconsistent statements, lying, not paying on time, or whatever it is, there’s always something you can pull out.

And then you threaten that source of supply. You go, “Okay, how can you do that? Is it through a potential lawsuit? Is it through a potential grievance to the authorities?” Whatever it is.

That’s the kind of thing you have to do. You’re using their own behavior, so there’s nothing wrong with doing it. You’re literally just saying, “This is what you did.”

And I always laugh because I put something on my Instagram recently: “How dare you ruin my reputation by telling people about the things I actually did.” You know, that’s basically what you’re threatening to do.

The A is Anticipate—anticipating what they’re going to do and being two steps ahead of them. I have about 50 ways of doing that and shutting it down because they’re going to try to beat you and trigger you.

And then Y is You—your 100% intention, your mindset, 100% that you’re going to win.

I used to say that 80% of a negotiation was won before you walked into a room. But then I interviewed Bob Proctor, and he corrected me on my own podcast and said, “No, no, it’s 100.”

And I was like, “You know what? He is right.” It is 100 because if you don’t think you can get the result that you want, nobody can help you.

Rebecca Zung: 35:35

Yeah. So actually, what I say to that is, I always say make a plan, stand. So when you go to meet with them, make sure that you have an agenda, a time limit, and that they know about it in advance.

So, like, this is the scope of the things that we’re going to discuss. This is the agenda. And keep it to the facts, not feelings. So, you know, you want to make sure that you stay with, “Okay, we agreed that we were going to discuss this issue today.”

And then, when they try to sandbag you and talk about all these other things, or what happened five years ago, or that you’re this or you’re that, and they try to hit your vulnerabilities, you go, “Respectfully, we’re here to discuss this,” and then just keep pulling them back into what the agenda states.

And then, make sure—first of all—when the time limit is up, you go, “Okay. Thank you very much. This is my favorite thing, talking to you, I love it, but you know, we’re going to have to continue another day.”

And then make sure that anything that you agree to gets reduced to writing because they will change their minds before the door hits their ass on the way out, and they will not honor their agreement. So, make sure you get it in writing, or you write a confirmation text or a confirmation email: “This is what we discussed, and this is what we agreed upon,” immediately after.

Susan Sly: 37:07

Yeah, and that’s so huge, right? And it’s the piece in writing. And as you said earlier, record everything—you know, keep the emails, keep the text messages.

Having that backup, and especially if a woman is emotionally vulnerable, and like you even said earlier, you know, we might forget something. But that’s where—just grab it, screenshot it, throw it in your Google Drive, consolidate it—because if it does get to a point where it is legal, you want to be in your power and have a repository.

Rebecca, before we wrap up—okay, now I have four pages of notes.

Rebecca Zung: 37:50

I know. It’s actually something else I wanted to share with you on something else that you just said, because I got this from our dear friend Kelly Townsend. So, big, huge shout-out to her.

When I first started my law practice, I had been a lawyer for several years, but then I went and I was a stockbroker at Morgan Stanley for a short period of time, and then I went and started my law practice. And that was about the time that I hired Kelly as my coach.

And I remember saying to her—because I was in Naples, Florida, which is a very affluent community, very kind of judgy, you know—and I remember saying to her, “Everybody’s going to think I’m such a flake. You know, I was a lawyer, and then I was in finance, and now I’m back to being a lawyer.”

And she said, “People will think what you tell them to think. You can tell them to think that you’re a flake, or you can tell them to think that you are the only family law attorney that has a financial background, so therefore you’re more qualified than any other family law attorney in town. Which story would you like to tell?”

And I was like, “Oh, maybe I’ll go with that one.”

And so, I went with that. And let me tell you, within two years, I had the top family law practice in that state, and I was representing billionaires, celebrities, CEOs—people who are very clearly not going to be hiring a flake.

And so, just knowing how you show up in the room—you influence that. You influence the energy of the room by who you stand for as yourself. And standing in your own power—you have to be it before you can have it, right? It’s be, do, have, not have, do, be.

And so, you have to be that energy and be that person, and then you will actually see that narcissists will change how they interact with you too.

Susan Sly: 38:20

Exactly! That’s what I was going to ask, of course, right? So, you knew that thought was coming in.

My first job, as you know, out of college was federal law enforcement in Canada. And one of the things that we were always trained on was that when someone is an offender, they will look for someone to attack who’s not paying attention, who’s, you know, not strong, whose head is down.

They look for the deer-in-the-headlights person.

And what I’m hearing from you is that a lot of narcissists are going to look for women who are not strong, who are not going to make their life harder because they want that fix, right?

And there’s also the narcissist who might want the belt notch, so they’re going to try and take out a strong woman. We’ve seen that in relationships before, and I know—

Rebecca Zung: 40:02

Yeah, they attack them. They attach themselves to you because you have so much value, not because you have so little.

And they do like people who look good to them. So, it could be a strong woman. It could be somebody because, you know, it’s not going to do anything for them to devalue, like, the clearance rack item, right?

They want to devalue something that has value. So, I do think that’s true to a certain extent.

But the vulnerabilities that I mean are, like, you’re not going to hold them to account if they don’t fulfill an obligation. Maybe they tell some sob story about how, “Oh, they’re sick,” or, “They’ve got something going on with their spouse who’s sick,” or something.

And so, you don’t hold them to account for whatever it is that they’re supposed to do because you’re trying to be the good person.

And I know, for myself, I spent a lot of years trying to prove my worth by working harder, being smarter, trying to do this, you know.

And, “Oh, if I just do this, then they’ll see how valuable I am.”

And, so, narcissists love that. You’re a perfect target for them. But the truth of the matter is that they’re way more afraid of you than you are of them.

I mean, that’s just the truth.

Susan Sly: 42:30

And that’s that piece—we forget our power. And thank you for that, because when we start to think about how we see ourselves in that situation with a narcissist versus how they’re seeing us, right?

I had a coach once who said, “Never make a decision if HALT.” This was her acronym. You’ve had so many beautiful acronyms, right? This was hers: if you’re Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired, you need to HALT—you need to step back.

Because it’s so easy for us to lose our perspective of our badassery, especially, you know, if we’re already going through perimenopause and menopause, and then on top of it, dealing with this.

My final question for you: you have incredible resources, and we will put them all in the show notes. And for anyone listening—men, women—Rebecca’s work is for everybody. Where is the go-to place for them to get plugged into your community, to get the resources? I know you have some free gifts as well.

Rebecca Zung: 43:43

Oh yeah, thank you for remembering that. I probably should have brought it up before when you asked me about step one. But I have Disarm the Narc phrases—you can get those for free at disarmthenarc.com.

I mean, I have so many free resources—docthenarc.com for documenting. I have a whole resource there on how to document properly.

If you go to my website, which is my brand-new website (which I love), I have a whole page of free resources there. So, go check that out.

And my YouTube, obviously, is free, which is RebeccaZung.tv. And, you know, my Instagram is Rebecca Zung.

And my book is Slay the Bully: How to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win, which you can get anywhere books are sold.

Susan Sly: 44:34

My sister. Thank you so much, and we will put these in the show notes.

How is it, after all these years of friendship and sisterhood, that now I’m at, like, almost six pages of notes? I’m gonna need to scan them into an AI to be like, “What the heck?”

But fortunately, we have AI to aggregate the show, so I won’t have to reread them again.

Rebecca, I love you so much, and thank you for your heart to serve.

Because just as there are 50 million women in the United States alone going through menopause right now, globally, it’s approaching 1 billion women.

And with all the things we’re dealing with, a lot of people talk about the symptoms and sometimes joke about them. But the symptoms are no joke. The mental and emotional symptoms are no joke.

And how we show up and remember our power is essential, because we’ll never conquer what’s going on in our bodies unless we can conquer what’s going on in our minds.

So, I love you. Hopefully, our producer thinks this is spicy enough—I don’t know.

Rebecca Zung: 45:52

Oh, well, I hope so. But I love you too. I mean, I love what you’re up to in the world and doing great things.

And, of course, because you’re you, it’s gonna be absolutely the best and amazing—because that’s you.

Susan Sly: 46:07

Oh, thank you. Well, for everyone listening, this has been another episode of The Menopause Health Podcast.

If you love the show, give us a five-star review and actually write something—we would love that. Share the show with your friends, and I will see you all in the next episode.

Voiceover: 46:25

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This transcript has been generated using AI technology. There may be minor errors or discrepancies in the text.

The opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the show or its hosts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional regarding your specific health needs.